Unscripted | Episode 10

Overcoming Burnout: Practical Self-Care Tips from Dr. Tala Kassm

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Addisyn Uehling: Welcome to Unscripted. I’m your host, Addison Uehling In this series, we have candid one on one conversations with physicians about common struggles that doctors face in today’s world. On today’s episode, we will be sitting down with Doctor Tala Kassm to talk about remembering your purpose as a physician on this episode of, unscripted. hey, thank you so much for joining us today.

Tala Kassem is a physician and certified life coach

Can you please start by introducing yourself and sharing a little bit about your background?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Sure. Yeah. My name is Tala Kassm. I am a physician and certified life coach. I went to osteopathic medical school in Arizona and then did, my residency in Louisville, Kentucky, and ophthalmology. So I am actually a glaucoma and cataract specialist, in an academic setting. But I, along the way, got certified as a life coach, and I coach with physicians, and that was kind of born from my own experience with burnout.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah. Awesome. That’s super cool. So what made you choose a medical career?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Well, my mom was a physician. she was a physician in Syria and didn’t, go through all the testing to be one here in the States. But, you know, I always, like, knew about that, and she was always my role model. But I think when it really became something I was serious about was after college, taking some time off from school and realizing I loved science. Number one, I love learning about the human body, how it works. And, then I really wanted to help people, interact with people and be of service.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely. That’s so important.

After completing a fellowship in academic medicine, you transitioned to life coaching

so kind of explain why you transitioned to a life coach, and is that what you do currently?

Dr. Tala Kassm: So I do both. I do many things. I joke with my husband that I have four or five jobs. but I, like I mentioned, after I finished my fellowship in academic medicine and stayed on, I was experiencing burnout just a few months into becoming an attending and really felt like, you know, there’s something wrong with me. I just finished training. How am I already so miserable and burned out? and didn’t really know what to do. And then, you know, I started my family and had two kids happened. so a lot was going on, and I kind of was just, you know, getting through it, and then it just kind of hit a wall. My oldest was getting diagnosed with autism, and I was really overwhelmed by that. And the testing and appointments and evaluations and therapies, it just felt like too much. So I took some time off from work to focus on him, and it ended up being time to focus on myself and really have some time to reflect and realize this isn’t working. I don’t want to keep going on like this. a friend told me about life coaching and said I should look into it, and there was a, ah, woman physician who was coaching, and so I went through her group program. I really didn’t know anything about coaching before then and didn’t know what to expect. but because it was with other physicians, I was able to buy into it more easily and it was really a great experience that really turned me on to coaching, and I decided at that time I’m going to leave medicine and do coaching full time. so that’s why I got certified and started building a business, and I’m still doing that, but I haven’t left medicine because I’ve been able to work through all of my struggles so much and I’m so much happier and getting a lot more fulfillment for medicine.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, that’s super amazing. I know quite a few physicians who are also life coaches, and that just gives you such a way to relate to those physicians who are also going through that. And that’s so cool that you can come out on the other side and be like, I went through that, but now I know. Get through that, you know?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

The antidote to burnout is self care, you say

Addisyn Uehling: I feel like there’s a lot of misconceptions, though, with self, care that, ah, what you mentioned, like, going through burnout, then you focus on self care. How do you, how do you want to speak to those, like self care? Because a lot of people think that’s selfish. However, it’s not, especially in the medical field. What would you say to that?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Yeah, definitely. I think, yeah, the antidote to burnout is self care. I mean, there’s more to it than that, but that is a huge thing, a, ah, huge portion of it, and it’s something I talk a lot with my clients about. yeah, so I agree. In medicine, you know, it’s very much, you know, work, work, work and put your needs aside. I mean, I remember being a medical student and working with physicians that never stop to eat or drink, and I’m standing there like dying. How are they doing this? And it’s just, I mean, to me, it’s just not okay. And so I think, you know, it’s a culture thing, and so I think it’s slowly changing. But, you know, it’s kind of a mindset in the whole field, and it’s nothing about, well, first of all, let’s say it is selfish and what’s wrong with that. What’s wrong with taking care of yourself? That’s one thing I have to say about that. And then the other thing is, I notice when you, or when I take care of myself, I show up as a better doctor, as a better wife, as a better mother. so maybe it is selfish, but it is also the other people around me benefit, too.

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Dr. Tala Kassm: My patients benefit from me taking care of myself.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely. I love that last thing you said. You know, when we take care of ourselves, we can be the best version of ourselves for other people. And in that way, we actually end up serving people better and giving that care better.

One of the misconceptions about self care is that it’s super time consuming

how would you say that, to those people who don’t have time for self care, like, how did you prioritize self care, as you mentioned, being a mom and a wife and having these two different jobs, how do you prioritize that in your life?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Well, I think the key is that, and I think another one of the misconceptions is that self care is super time consuming, or you have to spend a lot of money, and it doesn’t have to be, it doesn’t have to be about getting expensive yoga clothes and going to pilates every day or getting a gym membership. it could be two minutes of meditation. It doesn’t have to be 20 minutes or 30 minutes. Two minutes. It could be as simple as drinking water throughout the day. I’ve talked to many doctors who just don’t hydrate themselves to me, that self care, your body, we’re made up of water. You need to drink water. And I think so many people would feel better physically, energy wise, if they just drink more water. So self care doesn’t have to be anything fancy or intricate, or big. It’s kind of like going back to the basics. And so, yes, we are busy, but adding these things can make a huge difference.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely.

Self care in medicine comes down to boundaries, which can be hard in training

And you kind of mentioned that, like, drinking more water and some other kind of steps. Do you have any other practical tips that you would give to our audience who is mainly like, residents, fellows newly attending, those people who are still in the training aspect?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Yeah, I think another aspect of self care, it’s like what you think of, like, caring for your body, but also caring for yourself emotionally. And that comes down to boundaries. And I think I. Self care in medicine, a lot of it is about boundaries. And it’s hard when you’re in training because you’re not the boss, you’re not in control. You know, you show up and you’re told what to do and where to be and you’re answering to someone else. But you can start to practice boundaries in ways or at least noticing what your boundaries are. I think that’s the hardest part, is that we get so focused in medicine, doing what we’re supposed to do, that we don’t even know what we want. And so a lot of, especially women, come out of training and they become attendings, and they’re working, and they don’t even know, is this what I want? Why am I doing this? They’re just going, going, going. So, I think in training, slowing down and again, for a few minutes, not for a long amount of time, but checking in with your body and noticing what emotions and sensations you’re feeling that can really clue you into how you’re feeling about the work you’re doing or the assignment you were given or a new task, or the hours you’re working. And, getting clear. Like, when I’m out of training, I want to do it this way. For me, it was about starting 30 minutes later in my day so I could be with my kids in the morning. Like, I couldn’t do that. As a resident, I can’t just tell the attending, like, I’m coming in late so I can have breakfast with my family, but as an attending, I can. So, in training, you can kind of notice, what are those things that you want to prioritize when you’re done and the changes that you want to make to your schedule, and then you ask for that once you get out of training in your. You know, in your contract negotiations and looking at jobs.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely. The second episode of Unscripted, we talked about burnout with Doctor Menon, and she talked a lot about those applicable ways of how. How to recognize it first, but then how to treat it in a way that you. It’s so, like, applicable for anyone’s life, not even those just in medicine. I think that’s super valuable to remember.

How did you navigate your transition between your training and then your attending

So how did you navigate your transition between your training and then your attending?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Well, I would say not gracefully. I mean, kind of going back to what I was saying. I personally experienced this, and many clients I’ve worked with, other physicians, you know, it’s like. It’s slowly getting better. you’re a med student, and then you become an intern, and then you become an attending, and it’s incrementally getting better, but it’s still not great. So I became an attending and I stayed at the same place, which I’m happy about, but it’s still academic medicine and was just like, working long hours and taking on tasks that I didn’t necessarily want to. And so it’s kind of just a continuation in a way of residency to fellowship and on. So I think in terms of advice and, like, doing it differently, that’s where it comes back to what I was saying of, like, noticing what you do want in your schedule and what you do want in your day to day. because I kind of just kept going and that was part of the reason I had burnout so fast is that I was going at the same level of intensity and, the same mindset.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely.

One thing I mentioned was changing my schedule after having two children

Can you kind of share any personal experiences that you had with, self care and how that really helped you and kind of where you were at before and then after just to give, like, a applicable story of, like.

Dr. Tala Kassm: A specific, self care actor?

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Tala Kassm: well, so one thing

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Dr. Tala Kassm: I mentioned was changing my schedule. Well, here’s a big one. I was full time, and then after I had my first son, I went to four days a week, but still, it still felt like I was there all the time. It really wasn’t a huge difference. and so then after my second child was born, I went to three days a week, and that was huge for me. And I’m not saying, like, the only way to not experience burnout is to go part time. Like, you can be full time and, hm, get fulfillment and enjoyment, but being at the job that I’m at, and I’m also a glaucoma specialist and there’s a shortage of glaucoma doctors, where I’m at, and I mean, really in the whole country. And so it’s impossible for me to be at work and not be super busy. So I thought, well, I’m going to be here seeing 40 to 50 patients a day. I’d rather just do it two days a week instead of four days. And then, you know, I’m in surgery the other day, so that’s my three days a week. But that was a, a way that I kind of decided to take care of myself, was limiting the amount of exposure to the intensity that I was working. yeah, absolutely.

Addisyn Uehling: That’s such an applicable way to. You don’t always have to cut the hours, right. But you saw how intense it was, and I feel like that, like, mentally and then physically draining, you know, and recognizing that wear and tear, you know, for you is so important. So then you can be a better mom, a better wife, you know, serve people better.

How do you advocate for self care in your workplace

So how do you advocate for self care? In your, workplace, I think it’s.

Dr. Tala Kassm: Important to be first honest with yourself and what self care is for you. And so it’s different for everyone. And I think the first step is to take that time and really get clear on what you want. And that comes down to asking yourself, what do I want? And then asking for it. And it sounds simple and silly, but again, in medicine, we’re not used to asking for what we want because we are, you know, in this mindset that we have to work hard and not ask for anything and be a team player, and asking for what we want is not, congruent with those other things, which is not true. so speaking up for yourself and being honest and you can’t ask for what you, you know, you can’t have what you don’t ask for. So that’s kind of the first step.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely.

Do you have any practical strategies of implementing, kind of recognizing and then implementing self care

Do you have any practical, strategies of, implementing, kind of recognizing and then implementing self care?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Well, I think recognizing it’s, again, such a personal thing, but it can be like the basic things we talk about, talked about already, you know, sleeping more, eating a more balanced diet, drinking water, taking breaks throughout the day, meditating. But it could also be hobbies or things you enjoy, maybe things you used to do when you were younger and, you know, had more time, or even things as a kid, I talked to clients about playing as an adult and what that looks like for them and how important that is and, you know, accessing that creativity. so once you can kind of figure out what those are, those things that maybe you used to do or that you want to do, implementing that and not being a perfectionist about it, like, that’s the key I think, too, is that we get in this all or none thinking of, I have to work out an hour a day or meditate for 20 minutes. And so the practical side of it is to say, like, let me try this. I may not be great at it yet, I. But, I’m going to dabble in it. I’m going to do five minutes here or there. I may not do it every day. I may just do it once a week. And that’s okay?

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely.

How do you balance the demands of being like a mom, a wife

how would you say you balance the demands of being like a mom, a wife, a doctor, life coach? How do you balance all of that?

Dr. Tala Kassm: It takes slowing down and checking in. it’s a constant kind of self evaluation and it’s always changing too. So some weeks I may be more focused on my clinical practice. The other thing that, you know, we haven’t even mentioned is I actually helped my husband with his business, too. So I have four jobs, and, some weeks it’s just, you know, not every week is the same. So it, balances, makes it sound like every week I have the same amount of time and attention and energy to each thing I’m doing, and it’s nothing like. So some weeks are different, and that’s okay. I’m okay with that. But it’s about slowing down and checking in and seeing what needs my attention and what do I want to put my attention on this week?

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. Like, slowing down, checking in. In any stage in life, you know, whether you’ve been attending for a while or you’re still in training, you know, it’s just so important to realize that and prioritize, prioritize that self care, you know?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Yeah.

I think we lose ourselves in medicine before becoming a parent

Addisyn Uehling: what advice would you give to our audience from today? What’s the main thing you want them to take away?

Dr. Tala Kassm: I think the main thing is to start, having that introspection. we kind of. I think we kind of lose ourselves in medicine, and it’s become more apparent to me as I become a parent. And now I understand what it is to lose yourself in becoming a parent, which means, like, you get so focused on your kids needs that you don’t know what your own needs

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Dr. Tala Kassm: are. And so now I see how that had happened to me in medicine before I became a parent. And so kind of like what we were saying earlier, you get to medical school and residency, and you’re going, going, and you have your checklist, and you know what you need to do. So it’s more about what you need to do than what you want to do. So, taking that time to start noticing what is it that you want, whether it’s career wants, life wants, and not just goals, not just a checklist, but, like, things to slow down, things that don’t necessarily produce results, coming back to that, like creativity or play or self care, things that kind of nourish you and energize you. So if you get one thing from this talk, it’s, you know, kind of tune into yourself and start, to pay attention to what you truly want and, like, the emotions that are happening within you. Because we also get really good at compartmentalizing our emotions in training.

Addisyn Uehling: Yes. That’s so good. So good.

Do you feel like there’s any specific challenges attending physicians face when prioritizing self care

Do you feel like there’s any specific challenges or obstacles that attending physicians kind of face when trying to prioritize self care?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Well, we kind of already addressed the one of time. And so that’s always going to be an issue. And I think, you know, a lot of us get this narrative, I don’t have enough time. I don’t have enough time. But the truth is there’s a limited amount of time, and you make time for things that are important. So instead of telling yourself that story, I don’t have time. It’s more of deciding, like, what do I want to make time for and what’s important to me and not being overly ambitious and taking the wins where you can, you know, sometimes I’ll get like a ten minute workout and it’s better than nothing versus, you know, trying to do an hour long workout. And then the other, you know, obstacle I see is I think that we’re all kind of a little hesitant to, voice that our self care and our wants and desires because of the culture in medicine. And so I think being brave and being the trailblazer and being, you know, the role model for the younger generations and speaking up for what you want and taking time for yourself and taking breaks, it’s going to benefit you, but it’s also going to help change the culture. And, for anyone who’s nervous about, you know, being the one standing out, it’s, it’s okay. People don’t have to understand or agree, but it’s, you know, it’s the way we’re moving towards, I think.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely. Kind of going off of that.

Where do you hope to see evolution of self care awareness within the medical community

Where do you hope, to see in terms of the evolution of self care awareness within, the medical community?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Yeah, I hope, you know, and I think it is starting to become more apparent. I, think it’s not just within healthcare workers, but honestly, even among patients, I see that a lot, that patients will get really frustrated with the wait times or, you know, very annoyed, and it’s like they don’t see us as humans, too, with needs. And so I’m hoping that that shifts as well. And, you know, I hate that they have to wait, and I don’t like making a people wait, but there’s only one of me. And, you know, hopefully, as we get more people in the workforce and better staffing, the weights will be better, but it’s kind of like it goes both ways. so hopefully we can increase awareness among healthcare professionals, but also among the people we take care of.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah, absolutely.

Can you kind of share a little bit about your coaching business

Can you kind of share a little bit about your coaching business?

Dr. Tala Kassm: Yeah. So I mentioned I work with, physicians, typically women, but I work with, burned out physicians and, you know, physicians who are just looking for more work life balance as well. I work with them one on one, and we work together over twelve weeks. And, it’s been really rewarding. Really enjoy it.

Addisyn Uehling: Yeah. Awesome. Well, where can, our audience find that?

Dr. Tala Kassm: my website’s doctor Tala. So doctor spelled out and then my name, t a l a. Dr. Tala.com. and then I’m on, Instagram at d r t a l a. Key. And Facebook. I have a Facebook page. It’s the same doctor Tala and LinkedIn.

Addisyn Uehling: Well, thank you so much for joining us today. It was great to have you on the podcast.

Dr. Tala Kassm: Thanks for having me.

Addisyn Uehling: Absolutely.

I’d like to thank doctor Tala Kassm for joining us today. I hope our conversation has shed some light on the importance of remembering your core values and your purpose while in the midst of your medical career. Stay tuned for more discussions on important topics in the medical field. And one way to do that is to like and subscribe so you’ll never miss an episode. I’m your host, Addisyn Uehling, and we’ll see you next time on Unscripted.

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